Angela Kerek & Week 2: Why Do Successful People Burn Out?

The Trust Tax Investigation – Week 2

Why Does This Happen?

Last week, we discovered that burnout rarely begins with collapse.

It begins with a quiet moment when success no longer feels sustainable.

This week, we ask a different question:

How did we get here?

Through three remarkable conversations, you'll discover that burnout isn't usually caused by one overwhelming event. It develops through small adaptations that quietly shape the way we think, lead, achieve, and relate to ourselves.

Together, these conversations reveal why the most dangerous version of burnout can still look like success.

This Week's Episodes

• Monday — Hanna Curman: https://hannacurman.se/

Why expectations slowly disconnect us from ourselves and how awareness helps us reconnect with what matters most.

• Wednesday — Melanie Gray: https://drmelaniegray.com/

How the nervous system adapts to chronic demand until constant pressure begins to feel normal.

• Friday — Angela Kerek: https://angelakerek.com/

Why high achievers often tie their identity to achievement, responsibility, and being the person everyone depends on.

The Question We're Investigating
Burnout doesn't usually happen because one day becomes too much. It happens because we slowly adapt.

We meet expectations before our own needs. We normalize constant pressure. We begin believing our value comes from how much we can carry. These adaptations eventually become the stories we live—and those stories shape the way we lead.

Continue the Journey

If this week's conversations are helping you recognize your own story, I'd love to invite you to take the next step.

On October 15, 2026, join comedian Merit Kahn and me at Walsh College in Troy, Michigan for Rewrite Your Story.

The podcast helps you understand the story you've been living. Rewrite Your Story helps you choose the one you'll live next. During the day, you'll participate in an interactive workshop designed to help you recognize the stories driving the way you work, lead, and carry responsibility.

That evening, Merit Kahn's inspiring and hilarious one-woman show, Optimistic Personality Disorder™, helps you see those stories from a different perspective—and maybe even laugh at the ones you're finally ready to leave behind.

Because you don't have to abandon your success.

You simply need a story that lets you enjoy it.

Learn more at RewriteYourStoryEvent.com

Coming Next Week
Week 3 asks a bigger question. If these patterns begin inside people... What role do organizations play in reinforcing them? We'll explore how well-intentioned workplaces can unintentionally reward the very behaviors that eventually become the Trust Tax.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:03

If you only remember one thing from this week, remember this. Burnout doesn't begin the day you feel exhausted. It begins long before that. Welcome back to the Trust Tax Investigation. Over the past week, we've been asking a simple question. When does success stop feeling like success? And it feels like a trap. Since July 20th, you've heard three remarkable conversations with Danielle Griffin, Zoe Thompson, and Sandra Wood. Three different careers, three different life stories, yet they all describe the same invisible turning point. Not burnout, not collapse. The moment they realize I can't keep doing it this way. Danielle reminded us that our bodies often recognize the cost before our minds do. Zoe showed us that from the outside, things could look good, but internally, something doesn't align. And achievement alone isn't enough. Sandra revealed how easy it is to spend years performing a version of ourselves that the world expects while losing touch with the person underneath. Different stories, the same realization. Something had changed. If you haven't listened to those conversations yet, I encourage you to go back and start there. They lay the foundation for everything we're about to explore. Because this week, our investigation takes a different turn. We're no longer asking what happened. We're asking why. Why do intelligent, capable, caring people slowly become disconnected from themselves? Why do we normalize caring more and more responsibility until it simply feels like it's who we are? Why does burnout seem to surprise us when in reality the clues have been there all along? This week you'll hear from three extraordinary guests who approach the questions from very different perspectives. Hannah Kerman, Melanie Gray, and Angela Couric. Different disciplines, different expertise. Yet together they reveal something remarkable. Burnout isn't caused by one bad day. It's the result of patterns that quietly shape how we think, how we lead, and how we respond to the world around us. Today, Angela Kurek brings the perspective of elite performance, showing how success, pressure, and identity become deeply connected. Let's get started. You left Eastern Europe at the age of 16 with one bag, and you became a professional tennis player, then rebuilt your entire life into big law, and then rebuilt it again. Three lifetimes within one lifetime. And now you're doing it again into entrepreneurship. Most people would call any one of those chapters a full career. What was the through line, the thing that is actually driving you across all of these different domains?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

A very difficult question. So uh the you know, while you while you walk on the line, you don't even know. So the only thing I can say is what I see now, or what I think was a line. And if there isn't, you know, one concept of what follows through them is is some type of winning. So basically it's winning in from different angles. And it's always about has always something to do about traveling. So um it was when I left Romania, we actually traveled. We traveled by car and uh and went from the east to the west. We went physically from the east to the west, but we also traveled in our minds. I I left with my father, I have I have to add. So my mother and my brother stayed behind because this was the only way we could leave the country. But we traveled with a car from country to country, and the more we went to the west, the more we arrived in the west, like literally in the mentality of the West. So that type of traveling we did. And then wherever I was and whatever I did, the meaning of what winning is kept changing. This is how I reconcile my story at the moment from here where I am now.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

That is very fascinating, and I'd love as we go through this episode to understand what are the different angles, kind of like looking at a diamond, looking at it from different facets of your definition of winning.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, so it it it travels in a you know big picture summary, it travels from a winning, either winning or being nothing. So either winning the trophy, winning number one, or being some type of ranking, to if you don't make it, you are nothing. Then it travels to the world of the law firms, where just being in that top law firm meant being some top ranking and doing well and you know being fulfilled and growing until I realized that the winning I was feeling wasn't my own. So it was for a a legal construct for a law firm, because firms are constructs. Uh and it wasn't my glory basically that I was feeling that I'm being carried on. Um and then I went on first, you know, went off the platform and I was then looking inward. So what is there other than winning the trophy, winning the partnership, winning the money, winning the ranking? What is there if, you know, you don't achieve that? It cannot be that there is nothing the way I was raised. So there must be something which is a constant which whenever you don't win the trophy, still fall on and it holds you. And I call that the inside winning, so the winning inside. When I go for the trophy, I call it the winning outside. And then it went quiet and started to define for myself what does that mean? What can I build which makes me happy and makes makes me feel enough even if I don't chase anything. Uh and it was a nice period. And now it's about reconciling, you know, the two types of winning. To go for a goal, but focus on the process and on the inside so that achieving that goal doesn't become so important. But the process is that what makes you happy. So this is the um, you know, and and you could see it in different sets, you know, what tennis we have, we play in women's tennis, we play best of three, but um, you know, you could say my first part of life was tennis. And that was for me purely about winning outside, just really chasing the win. In the law firm, I thought it's more than just chasing the win. So it's like more fulfilling. But it turned out to also be just chasing the partnership. Then the third set was, you know, coming towards myself. And you could say now in the fourth set of my life, I don't know, and who knows how many sets I'm going to play because I don't know if you've seen it. There is this Netflix series now coming out about about Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. And it's called the final set. And I'm very curious, uh, you know, I can't wait to see. Um, it's the final set of the two, the rival the rivalry of the two, in which is about keeping each other alive because both of them have cancer. And the final set is about, you know, coming together to support each other. Now, this is a rivalry, and you can always say they want to win against each other, but it's a reconciliation. So it's a win in reconciliation of you know, making each other live.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, so now the win is really understanding internally you. I love that. So Big Law is famous for high performing, so you're under high pressure and you're used to that high pressure in tennis, in the tennis environment, and you were there for 18 years advising billion euro deals and partner level at at the partner level, like you just described. And so we talked about coming to that final set, but before you came to that final set, what did performing at a high level actually look like from the inside? Not the external markers, but from the inside. What was your internal experience?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

So in in the advisory, I actually really loved it. It um I was I was very driven. I loved the intellectual challenge about it because those those are like really complex transactions. So the topics you solve in the invisible little chamber for the transaction, they are really complex. So sometimes they are almost unsolvable, of how you reconcile corporate structures with tax and with financials and everything. So that was a huge challenge, and I loved raising to that. So internally it was like, oh my God, I just I just love doing it because you grow, you grow intellectually so much. And then there is the physical side of it that is really challenging because people just don't realize how how tiring that is, and they keep chasing you, you know, and you're basically there to just execute what they what they want you to, and it doesn't matter when, they just want the result. And that sometimes means for you you do it in the night, because you know, on until the evening you are responsible of, you know, managing the transactions, and the only quiet time you have is when they go to bed. And that's challenging, that's physically extremely challenging. So uh but again, I love that too, because I was even running and training uh when I slept just a few hours in uh in the night, and that always kept me alive and that always kept me energetic. But what you're actually running on when you advise under such pressure is adrenaline. So it's feeding you, it's like a beast, uh, and you want more and you want more challenge and you love it, and then I don't know, you hope that people recognize it. And sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So, you know, so from the inside, when you're on a tennis court, imagine the inside of a tennis court like a share price which is going like up and down, up and down, right? And the volatility of that share price is huge because it's on the tennis court, like one match played is also almost a life lift, so much intensity. It's what you feel. And then when you're on a billion dollar transaction, this is how you also feel. It's not the same intensity, but the volatility is really high of the feelings you have. The highs and the lows are very high and very low, and it changes within a shortest period of time the spikes and the lows. So this is how it feels. And and if a transaction is over, you basically fall into the abyss because the adrenaline is gone. So you're a junkie.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

That is so interesting, and I could see it, you know, just imagine watching the pros play and seeing after the match, you know, someone and it's so intense, it's so close, like maybe it's they're in a tie break and and and uh it's you know, five all, and then two more points, and they've got it, and they get six five, and and now it's up to that last point, just one serve possibly, and then it goes in, the other person misses, and the person that won is at seven five or what have you is like on the ground and crying because of that intense emotion.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

It's relief, yeah. Sometimes it's so much relief, you know, that actually you made it, and actually that it's over, it's also a relief. So now imagine you're in the tie break you just described and it's five all, and then you have like a maximum of 30 seconds between two points. This is how it goes. So those 30 seconds, if you don't control your mind in some type of way, those 30 seconds can contain your entire life basically, because thoughts, if you don't really if you don't contain them, they just go crazy. It's like within within milliseconds, you go from being a winner to a total loser. Your life becoming a glory or you becoming nothing. And it's really hard to contain them because you know thoughts are like I don't know, it's like a million, million little creatures flying around, and you somehow need to channel them. You know what's interesting? I'm I'm just coaching now a little boy, he's 14, on the mental side, and um and I'm coaching him what to do between the two points in those 16 to 25 seconds. And I told him, you know, the research is saying that from a match it's sev around 17% of a match is what you actually play. And 83% nothing's happening. Meaning everything is happening in your mind. So it's just 17%. We just train forehands and back ends, you know. You you play too, so we just train forehands and back ends. But actually 83% of the match is nothing happening, so everything is in your mind, so everything's about channeling your thoughts, and I'm I'm teaching him a structure of what you do between two points. It's a four-step structure, basically. You need to train.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, I I I definitely can see that because I I I do remember okay, now it's had in, just hit the serve, and I'm at the same time thinking, okay, what is a a really awesome serve feel like? What is an awesome serve look like? What is mostly what does it look like? What is my foot doing? What is my hand doing? I got it, because it's I don't know, a long time ago I I have decided that there's two tennis players in my body. One is Natasha, she's the evil one who is like, you suck. And then there's Liora. I don't know where I got that name. It just happened. And she's the hey, your body knows what to do. Just relax, you've got this. And I'm like, okay, let's let Liora come in here.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah, but it's literally the dialogue you have between Natasha and Diora, which is defining how you perceive a match and whether you win it or lose it on that day.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Hannah, Melanie, and Angela aren't telling the same story. They're answering the same question. How do capable, caring people gradually become disconnected with themselves? Hannah reminds us that it begins when we spend more time living up to the expectations of others rather than listening to ourselves. Melanie explains what happens when our nervous systems adapt to the constant demand. High alert becomes normal until we no longer recognize what calm feels like. Angela explains how our identity quietly becomes tied to achievement and responsibility. Until caring more isn't just what you do, it's who you believe you are. Different perspectives, same explanation. Burnout isn't caused by a single event. It's the result of small adaptations that over time become the way we live. We stop listening to ourselves. Our nervous system learns that constant pressure is normal. Our identity becomes wrapped up in proving our value. None of it happens overnight. And that's exactly why so many people never see it coming. As we return to today's conversation, ask yourself which of these adaptations have quietly become normal for me? Because once you understand how you got here, you can begin to choose a different path. Bringing this into the work life, so it's so easy for me to see it and feel it on the court, but not a lot of people are on the court. Can you show me or talk to me how you would apply this whole concept in your work life? Because you you had you were in a pressure situation as you described. How did you apply it there?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

So I actually, at first, it was unconscious. So I went into the law firm and I did, I'm a finance, a corporate finance lawyer, and I had no clue about finance, about corporate, like zero, literally zero. So I just came out of university and I became really good really fast. And I was like, whoa, so what's going on? Why am I so good? But it was before the financial crisis, so I did not have time to think. So I just actually had to work. And I'm brilliant in execution. If you give me something to do, it's just like it's done. Um, and um and that, you know, that was about drive, about willpower, it was about strength, about you know, being focused. And I was really good at that. It just so happened it was finance law, it could have been something else. But then uh um, you know, then there was this little negotiations with the lawyers of the of the other side. I I don't say, you know, opponents or something, but you know, of the other side of the transaction, and we were negotiating like clauses of agreements like nobody ever cared about, basically. But it had to be done, so we did it. But then I realized that actually I'm the no prisoners type of lawyer. So I wanted to win every point. It was weird, you know, and sometimes I succeeded, but when I have to when I had to give give points away, I I was actually feeling defeated. And I just thought to myself, so something's wrong in your head, basically, because this I mean, I took it personally, I took it, you know, oh, I didn't argue well enough and so on. So that was, you know, me c coming from the court directly into negotiation rooms. And just gradually, it took me like a decade, gradually, until I realized it doesn't matter which points I win and how I win them. There's just one important thing is that my client wins the points is which are really important for him or her. So that matters, and then basically I start started changing tactics. Now I'm talking tactics of which points do I need. And then we had a list of, I don't know, 30 points or 50 points, and then came back to 10 points. But we knew there are only two which are really, really important. And then you use them as decoys, you use them as negotiation mass, and that's when it gets really interesting. Now this is inside a transaction. And now taking you to the office in an everyday life, it was about or is about, it still is basically. About what do I do when? How do I push myself? Do I take breaks? Do I sleep? Do I listen to whether my body is saying, Well, this is enough now? Or do I keep pushing? Because you know, there is a biolog biology in sport that stops you or makes you perform better. But in the office, we are just you know, we are just cut off and we think whatever our minds want to do, we are going to do it. But we forgot that there is a body. Um, so I actually I've written a book which is in German. This is why I I don't I don't even want to mention, but there is a book called Winning Inside, in which my former tennis coach and I, we have taken the you know the the secrets and the tactics that athletes use to perform better and transfer that into business life, which is really it's about you know, it's about the winner mentality, it's about Intrinsic drive and not not extrinsic motivations and stuff like that. Everything that applies in sport applies in business as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Thank you for that. And I think that would be great when you translate it to English. We would love to see that. Yeah, I keep hearing that. There you go. You have a market already primed for you. So you're convincing me for sure that of the belief that high-performance culture, that elite athletes make great leaders because they know how to push through. And you've talked about that you have to also pay attention to your body so that you're being in your prime. And you've lived both sides, you've played the professional tennis and you've led at the highest level in law. Where does that belief, do you think, get it right? And where does it get it dangerously wrong?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

The belief of pushing, you mean?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Well, in both worlds, they are pushing almost too far, right? So when you're a professional athlete, you just push your body. You just push the pain you feel, you push through that. And your mind helps you. Now in the business world, the problem is that we admire only those who push through. We, you know, who just push dangerously close to burnout. That's what is the culture of you know, admiring this type of leaders. And the other type that is admired in the business world is the controlling one, you know, where you um were through fear, through control and fear. So let me just step back from that. This is when, you know, I was raised in a culture in communism where nobody cared what you feel and think. It was just about just do it. Um and those were those brilliant gymnasts and swimmers and you know of the of the past communist era. They were really good and achieved great results very fast, but they were not allowed to have a say in how that happens. And now, decades later, they start digesting that. Because you you can never really digest it. It's never really yours because you're driven by something and somebody. Now, the same happens now a lot in these offices in corporate world, where you know you have a leader who just wants the results for the next quarter, for the budget, for the shareholders, for the profit. There's always something why they push you. And in particular in these law firm environments, in investment banking, in but then every leadership position, it's a lot about well, you just need to do more. Right. And I don't care how you feel, I don't care what your family does, I don't care how who you are, basically. I actually just want you to push and make it happen. And the answer is just make it happen, no matter the cost. And the cost is usually your personal cost. And this is where we go, you know, be burning ourselves out. And in in elite sports, we are pushing our bodies to the brink. But in both worlds, we are pushing. Almost, you know, obviously there is this drive of knowing where the limit is and how far I can go. But then there is this feeling, okay, but now I need to stop. And this is where people lose it, is what I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

I really appreciate the way that you describe that. And uh for the person that's listening right now, who's listening to their body and saying, okay, enough is enough, and I care about what I think, what are some of the things that you would say to them that would help them during this to really connect internally?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I'm going to say things that are never wrong. But I hope that people would were there accepting that they're never wrong. So what I know, uh and I I strongly believe is that whenever your body is talking to you in some type of science and pain and hurt, that is never that's never wrong. So you can't just ignore it and say, like, shut up, shut up, Natasha, you know. Because even if she's annoying, she wants to tell you something. And pain is a a sign, you know, is a sign, okay, don't push me further. And if you keep ignoring it, there is there is a leeway, and and then it will just collapse. And maybe you're lucky to not collapse completely. What uh so what I where I'm trying to get at is that the signs your body gives you are never wrong. There is this, you know, if you have this feeling of something's not working or something's not s doesn't sit right, something in my workplace, you know, they just say I'm not working enough, but actually I am pushing myself to my brink. And they either don't want to say it or they want to destroy me. By, you know, this is about understanding that I have my limits and and I can't let people push me beyond those limits if I know that that's dangerous. So, you know, the body talks with like subtle signs and it starts with some you know small signs and the pain gets better and greater and greater. Well, that's getting louder. Or, you know, it's this gut feeling that something's not right. Well, if something's not right and this feeling comes keeps coming back, then it means that something's not right for you. It may not be for others, but for you it's not right. And this is information basically, it's just information saying, Natalie, do something with it. At least have a look at it. You know? We are afraid to look because we think, oh my god, what am I going to find? Because it's like unknown. But I would always encourage people to listen to what your body says and you know how it reveals stuff. I don't know, I'm just going to share it with you. At a moment, I have like I'm so I'm super cramped here in my jaw. It's like really bad, really, really bad. And to an extent that sometimes I don't even know what to do with it. But now I know why it happens. So I well, long story short, um I lost my father in February. So it's about grief, and I never grieved before, so I didn't know it's grief. But this type of grief what I'm experiencing now, it just shows, you know, something sitting here, you know, something's taking my breath away, and and I don't I can't breathe, you know. Um and I'm now I just went out for help and I'm doing working with body workers and releasing, and but there is something sitting in there, so it just must come out from the body. Yeah. Um this is how I this is why I'm trying to encourage people, you know. Um the the body is like a that it has a language.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

It's like your antenna to the spiritual world.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

It doesn't even need to be spirit, it's very physical. It's like incredibly physical. So it's so physical that I literally sometimes can't breathe. And um, you know, I just uh heard um to go back to tennis, went back uh to uh a sequence of Rafael Nadal's film about his life. And he's talking about periods in his life when he literally almost choked on his own saliva. And that's incredibly physical and real. And it sounds crazy, right? But for him it was reality. And for me, these scramps are reality.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

So I there's nothing uh spiritual, you know, behind this. It's it is very real and very present. So I just start touching it and I just start, you know, researching what it's what it's trying to tell me.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Right. So what I mean is that we know from an emotion I I always equate spirit with, okay, we know that we need to be paying attention to something. We know emotionally something's happening, and sometimes it's hard to come to the surface, so it shows up in our body somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, exactly. I mean, I it's a definition, then you know, you have a different definition about the spiritual, but but this is what it basically is, whatever we call it. This is a sign your body speaks to you, it's telling you, well, darling, just pay attention. Because otherwise you would choke.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah, so there you go. It's really um I could see where now you're on the inside, you're paying attention to what is happening really in me, and it's not going after the external awards, it's really what do I need? What do I want? And if there's a woman right now that's been listening and she's been delivering for the company and pushing through and maybe push and also definitely pushing too much, and it's showing inside, showing up inside her body, and what she's hearing from you, she feels like you're the person that can help her through this. How could they find you? And what's the best next step for that person who's heard this conversation and knows it's time to do something different?

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Um, I mean, you can always reach me to my website. So uh that's really angelacarrick.com. And I'm obviously here and I I can always help. But there is this encouragement I want to put out there, which is, you know, also having the courage to help yourself to start listening and to start maybe writing what you hear, what you feel, where you feel it. Have you felt it before? Um, you know, sometimes we just cry, you know. Sometimes in the office we just start crying, and you don't know why. And there is some type of tension coming out. The other thing which everybody can do without needing you or me or anybody is externalizing which is writing, which is singing, which is screaming, which is, I don't know, boxing, hitting, like literally externalizing any tension which is in the body, and externalizing really means pushing it out, you know, like really getting it out of the body, whether by sound, by signs, or by impact. It does get the hurt out. This, I don't know, the emotional hurt that needs to be externalized. And this is an encouragement, you know, where women can help themselves right away before connecting. Anyway, it's always a hurdle of connecting, but you know, trying to just follow the lead. We are really good in, we have good instincts as women. Just trust the instinct. And if there is any help, I mean, I'm always there. I also have a really nice small little course on my uh like email course. You don't need to talk to anyone on my website, so people can access that. You can read my newsletter on every Sunday. I'm writing about winning, so different types of stories of what winning means and how you can perceive it and think about it. I mean, that could be a first start. Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Thank you so much for sharing such personal information. And it I know it's gonna resonate with the listeners. And when that book comes out in English, let me know. I will. Thank you so much for being on Unsealing You. Thank you so much for having me. Over the last two weeks of the Trust Tax Investigation, we've uncovered two important truths. In week one, we learned that burnout really begins with a collapse. It begins with a quiet realization. I can't keep doing it this way. This week we asked a different question. How did we get here? And our guests have given us remarkable answers. It's not through one catastrophic event. It's not because we're not resilient enough, but because over time we adapt. We learn to meet expectations before we meet our own needs. Our nervous system begins to accept constant pressure as normal. Our identity becomes tied to achievement, responsibility, and being the person everyone can count on. These adaptations don't happen overnight. They happen so gradually that they begin to feel like it's who we are. But they're not who we are. They're what we've learned. Next week, we take the investigation one step further. If these adaptations develop inside us, what role does our organization play in reinforcing them? How do well-intentioned workplaces unintentionally reward the very behaviors that eventually become the trust tax? That's where we're headed next. Until then, I want to leave you with one question. What have you adapted to that no longer serves you? Because the moment you recognize that adaptation is the moment you realize it can change. I'll see you next time as we continue the trust tax investigation.